This is receiving a fair bit of discussion and was touched upon in NOS' outstanding blog on the now-injured Iongi. I thought it could be better discussed in isolation where some may like to offer their observations over the years of similar comparisons.These questions re Joash Papili and Iongi make for interesting discussions and seem to be a topic of currency.
A good friend of mine in Brisbane is adamant that Reece Walsh would be an elite 5/8. A lot of people vascillated over Ponga being best for Knights at 5/8 or fullback.
Darren Lockyer was probably the most successful switch from fullback to five-eigth. Still, he was exceptional with immortal status written all over him. A tough benchmark.Fortunately for him he also had a "full time minder" in standover man, Tony Carroll. So, he had less defensive challenges. No doubt there other examples I have missed but that's a benchmark.
Now, back to Iongi and Joash.
If either were to play at five-eight we have a situation where defence can be their kryptonite.
However, it comes back to the type of half or lock that you may have in your side. For example, one of the underated strengths of Nathan Cleary is that his defence is good as any lock. He could protect any 5/8 that is weak link. Think Talagi for a minute. Cleary basically and effectively cover defends every backline raid made on the Penrith side.
Mitchell Moses as improved as he is as a defender is not an elite cover defender, not from lack of effort but his enthusian is tempered by his lack of physicality. I can think most of his recent injuries can stem from him getting hurt undertaking defence. The point being we cannot afford to rely on Moses covering a weak defending six. This emphasised further by his injury proness and us needing to get his play making and attack speed harnessed.
I then suppose we look at the football qualities of the players we have discussed. If Joash had the type of skills that those elite players have, he would have done better so far full-stop as a first grade player. Reality says he hasn't got those elite skills. I accept they may come, but I doubt it.
Iongi comes into a different level of attainment, he has natural and unique skills, that lacking of the blinding pace that his peer group are showing makes "pace" as the missing ingredient.
Edwards is not exceptionally fast, but can go the length of the field and his bigger body and natural ability to beat a man physically gives him a make up edge.
Ponga who I think is having DB type burnout, is IMO the best and most natural-gifted player in the game, on his day. That "day" though has a touch of DB and MM about it.
Pappahauzen, Weekes have that exceptional blinding pace. Pappy also has that magnificent football instincts that makes him elite.
My summation is that Iongi is our long term fullback, at least for some time. His high ball catching is now at an elite level as is his back up support play. Joash is a good player. But he's difficult to place. It's my view he is not a first grade proposition in a single position, but a fine back up.
I also note in these discussions we end up very biased to our own in trying to justify something alluding to loyalty to our players. A very human response!
What are your views? Are there any other useful comparisons or anecdotes along these lines?
Replies
You will have noted by now that is what i was driving at and I cannot emphasise enough that contextual is the thing we have to remember.
We have very preconceived minds on here about training in positions and what a good pre season will do etc.
Remember but Jack Gibson's words, he picks the best 13 and then finds a position. Yes a good footballer is that to start with, then you start to step up. Instinctive value cannot be taught. Iongi IMO is an instinctive player, Joash wants to be there, but isn't that good yet!
Joash is still very much 3rd tier and I reckon Iongi is 2nd tier with a rocket!
If either of these guys had the type of pace I have been referring to, we would not be talking about them. They would be somewhere else.
Its not all plain sailing and simple, they still haven't figured out that Talagi has no pace....Joash would leave him for dead, and I doubt that Joash could get close to iongi.
Bluey, trust me on this one and keep in context any of those "gooses" you have quoted i.e the commentators.
Yes Iongi is fast, especially in that first 10 metres, but the difference i was pointing out was the absolute pace of his similarly sized peers (those peers being the fullbacks to be compared with)....Iongi is not a big physical player, his peers are Paperhauzen, Weekes, the guy from Canberra.
These are the guys I am making the comparison with, eg. These blokes run around defences from the back and then finish the sprint to the line 90/100 metre tries. Some unbelievable tries have been scored by those blokes this year.
I can say I don't believe Iongi has scored a try from his side of halfway. Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't think of any?
Now the rhetorical argument I will get back to this commentary is that "shit he is still bloody good" and he does this and that! no arguments from me but the point I am making is exactly that. Doesn't mean he is not as good a player as those blokes I have mentioned, just the realism of the judgement on a specific.i.e. I believe he is better in the air than any of them.
By the way those comments made by the judges you quoted are basically true, nobody has said he is slow and he certainly isn't, I am just trying to provide a "aspect" that is there.
WE have to be very careful on here because the literal aspects always need some qualification. Wiz is superb at it, he will twist things and say things that were never in the original context.....he calls it "hyperbole".
Cheers, I just honestly thought he was fast and had pace. You and Daz bring up a very good point re backing up the line breaks and where is he sort of thing. I'd love to understand that a bit more I think. I rate the kid, but as both of you suggest he is either not in position or not fast enough, or perhaps we don't make very many line breaks from our own half.
'I'd like to delve into this aspect of his play a bit more i think.
Okay so i did a little digging. We only have 1 player in the top 50 for line breaks and that's Josh Ado Carr sitting in 3rd position with 17 line breaks. He is our best for line breaks by a mile.
Line Break Assists - Iongi is our only player in the top 50 sitting in 35th spot with 8 line break assists. He creates for others more then himself it appears for now.
'Here is a telling stats for Support Play, Iongi sits in 5th spot in the NRL as player in support with 110 incidents. 3rd spot is only 2 in front. Not a bad effort for a Rookie. He has Gutherson and Connor Tracey in front of him that are fullbacks.
Interesting, how we all view him a little differently and where we want him to improve.
Bluey, this is of my front page of this blog.....
"My summation is that Iongi is our long term fullback, at least for some time. His high ball catching is now at an elite level as is his back up support play.
Sorry Pops your right ! I was just throwing in Daz's opinion that he might not be around for support play, and your view others were faster which then got me thinking.
I lumped all three of our comments / views into one answer view etc, in just stating some of his stats to backup what all fans might or might not see.
Your views were spot on I thought except I thought he has speed. Rightly or wrongly I couldn't find any stat or recorded measurement like Mitches 36.1km per hour etc, to back it up but.
Thanks Bluey, to add to what you said, don't think for a minute he doesn't have speed! He does, just not that elite speed. Statistics will not always seal judgements. I will use Ponga as an example. He may not have that super elite speed either but he has sustainable speed that allows him to score long distance tries. He is extremely strong through the "glutes and thighs" this enables the real break, then he has enough speed to finish it.
Look at some professional sprinters, the very best are not in the first 4 in lots of occassions after 20 metres, then they power home. In rugby league that first 20 metres (even 5 metre for someone like Alfie Langer) is the imperative. Alfie rarely ran more than 20 metres to score a try, and he scored plenty scooting after a short kick. The speed between the ears is also as important as the legs. Great intutive player(smart footballer) Would not trust him to go to Coles and get a dozen eggs and come home with the right change!
Now I will mention Baize Talagi, he has good natural football instincts, runs a great line, good passing game etc BUT he never makes a break i.e busts through a tackle....he has no natural speed or strength and in the recent game against Panthers, he actually got into clear about just on half way. Iongi gave him about 3 metres and picked him up in about 10 metres. He was no different when he was with us and he has been beautifully handled by Ivan Cleary, but I don't think he will make it unless he develops a power game. It took Nikorama a long time in the twilight before he built himself up to power his moves.
In summary I think if Ilongi can develop his power game he could literally be "anything". How is handled by Parra becomes the key. In Dyllan Brown we had a different type/style of player but he was handled terribly. Jarryd Hayne, arguably the best player in the game at various points of his career was murdered by the way he was handled (didn't help himself much, but with a Bellamey or Ivan Cleary it is frightening to think how good he could have been).
Apologise for my ramblings but I have seen most of the modern era of players from the 60's through, so you do start to get a picture.
Issue we have is some people try to make the team so balanced it comes at the expense of weakening other positions. Who is the better Fullback? Well based on Ryles' judgement and fact they both competed in pre-season, Iongi is. Who would be the better 5/8? Hard to say as Iongi has not played FG 5/8, though based on skills and opinion of some here with the suggestion of moving Iongi, it could be Iongi as well.
Why weaken the Fullback position just to strengthen the 5/8 postion but a little bit? If anything i feel the 5/8 position is the one position of depth in the market. It is a flexible position to replace. With Moses you can get by with a 7/10 5/8. Do we have the time for Iongi to be learning to play 5/8?
I do feel some of the comparisons of Iongi are a bit of a stretch. He is a mixture of various Fullbacks. Has elements of Dylan Edwards in terms of workrate but also has more ball playing to his game. The big knock on Iongi, as most have said, is backing up on the play. Compared to who he replaced in Gutho, one of the best support players we've had, he needs to fix that element of his game.
But what a luxary to have Iongi at 1, then Papali'i in lower grades to compete.
100 the depth isn't there to think like that and fit swap a maybe for a well proven player in Iongi.I even question if there ever was a competition Iongi was the best fullback in cup and he came out of a better development system than Joash.
Fullback in the offseason was a KO to Iongi and his play has kicked onto FG not just potential but actually grabbed his opportunity and has run with it.
Well Ben Barba was originally playing 6 then moved to 1 and was unbelievable. So who knows joash may light it up at 1. Which would be great because I still believe longi will make a great 6
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