This is receiving a fair bit of discussion and was touched upon in NOS' outstanding blog on the now-injured Iongi. I thought it could be better discussed in isolation where some may like to offer their observations over the years of similar comparisons.These questions re Joash Papili and Iongi make for interesting discussions and seem to be a topic of currency.
A good friend of mine in Brisbane is adamant that Reece Walsh would be an elite 5/8. A lot of people vascillated over Ponga being best for Knights at 5/8 or fullback.
Darren Lockyer was probably the most successful switch from fullback to five-eigth. Still, he was exceptional with immortal status written all over him. A tough benchmark.Fortunately for him he also had a "full time minder" in standover man, Tony Carroll. So, he had less defensive challenges. No doubt there other examples I have missed but that's a benchmark.
Now, back to Iongi and Joash.
If either were to play at five-eight we have a situation where defence can be their kryptonite.
However, it comes back to the type of half or lock that you may have in your side. For example, one of the underated strengths of Nathan Cleary is that his defence is good as any lock. He could protect any 5/8 that is weak link. Think Talagi for a minute. Cleary basically and effectively cover defends every backline raid made on the Penrith side.
Mitchell Moses as improved as he is as a defender is not an elite cover defender, not from lack of effort but his enthusian is tempered by his lack of physicality. I can think most of his recent injuries can stem from him getting hurt undertaking defence. The point being we cannot afford to rely on Moses covering a weak defending six. This emphasised further by his injury proness and us needing to get his play making and attack speed harnessed.
I then suppose we look at the football qualities of the players we have discussed. If Joash had the type of skills that those elite players have, he would have done better so far full-stop as a first grade player. Reality says he hasn't got those elite skills. I accept they may come, but I doubt it.
Iongi comes into a different level of attainment, he has natural and unique skills, that lacking of the blinding pace that his peer group are showing makes "pace" as the missing ingredient.
Edwards is not exceptionally fast, but can go the length of the field and his bigger body and natural ability to beat a man physically gives him a make up edge.
Ponga who I think is having DB type burnout, is IMO the best and most natural-gifted player in the game, on his day. That "day" though has a touch of DB and MM about it.
Pappahauzen, Weekes have that exceptional blinding pace. Pappy also has that magnificent football instincts that makes him elite.
My summation is that Iongi is our long term fullback, at least for some time. His high ball catching is now at an elite level as is his back up support play. Joash is a good player. But he's difficult to place. It's my view he is not a first grade proposition in a single position, but a fine back up.
I also note in these discussions we end up very biased to our own in trying to justify something alluding to loyalty to our players. A very human response!
What are your views? Are there any other useful comparisons or anecdotes along these lines?
Replies
All true, Super. So why switch papalii to FB? It just seems puzzling if Ryles wanted to develop Papalii at 5/8 that he would opt to shift him to FB with Iongi out. If Papalii was 14 or in reggies, sure, come into FB. But plucked right out of that role learning the position? Odd
I reckon he wants to see what Hawkins can do. He's a ready-made half, and could work well with Moses.
I think the reason the players mentioned above did not succeed with the transition from fullback to 5/8th is purely desire.
All of the above mentioned definitely had the skill, what they all missed is the desire.
For one, 5/8th requires alot more defensive work and let's be fair, none of the failed experiments looed like they really wanted the extra responsibility nor the work.
You have absolutely nailed it Frank.Players like Moses and Cleary, Cronk etc have improved year on year because they are footy nuffys. They love the game, study the game, probably watch every game. They are students of the game. Players like DB and Ponga have admitted they don't watch games, they don't really love the game they just play because they are good at it and get paid damn well for it. Most fullbacks these days are better defenders than they used to be. Someone of Iongi's size could handle the physicality of 6, I'm not so sure about Papali
Imagine Hayne had Thurstons desire. Instead he was just a far far better Dylan Brown. Blessed with talent , never had to earn a spot in a team in his life through hard work.
Nailed it, Pops. Great write up here, well done.
Great talking point Pops.
Im a little confused on suggesting that Iongi lacks the speed of his peers. I thought the kid was fast. Some of the footy commentators have said similar. What are you seeing that i'm missing Pops.
Mick Ennis quote. “(But) he’s (Iongi) developing beautifully for them, he really is. He’s so athletic.
“He’s got the ability to get in and work like (Panthers fullback Dylan) Edwards but then he’s got that footwork and speed and balance and his ability to stay in and around the middle forwards and capitalise on offloads and then trouble tired defenders and then at the same time, he’s got that strength to be able to shrug them off and beat them.”
Kevin Walters : "He moves quickly across the ground too doesn’t he,” Walters said.
Greg Alexander: "“He doesn’t sit back and wait for the game to come to him.
“He is the modern day fullback that loves to get his hands on the ball. He has genuine speed in and around the ruck"
Andrew Voss :" Iongi boardering on scintillating speed really, to get him past the first man"In commenatary of Eels v Tigers
Let's just say Joash absolutely lights it up the next 3-5 games then possibly Iongi can make the move to 6, he is a big body and can easily fill that role but I'm not sure Joash is that level of fullback to force that kind of move. Time will tell he's got 3+ games to show out
Papali'i i feel for as he has been thrown into 5/8 for a few reasons. Firstly, losing Brown and failing to get Galvin has made us try to get a quick plan B if we cannot get anyone else. Secondly is Papali'i banging the door down to play NRL so we have to find a spot for him and hope he works out. 5/8 is the next experiement as Hooker didn't work.
Though to be fair, Papali'i is a Fullback by trade, he trained all season at Fullback, he played two seasons for Canterbury prodominately at Fullback. He played some 5/8 in Cup before playing FG off the bench. So of course he is going to be raw.
Though i do feel Ryles' mind is made up of Joash being a future 5/8 for us with just using Papali'i as a better safe than sorry option as we have nobody else anyway.
Blue Eel, what I find puzzling in talking of Iongi's speed is that none of us right now have definitive evidence. We are 20 games in and we just have not really seen Iongi in open space much. The Eels being bad does not help, obviously. But I really want to know where Iongi has been in the many line breaks the Eels have managed? Is that a speed or positioning issue? We know Hammer and Paps are very fast so they turn up in support alot, so if we are to suggest Iongi has very good speed too, why so few times has he been in position to convert line breaks?
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