This is receiving a fair bit of discussion and was touched upon in NOS' outstanding blog on the now-injured Iongi. I thought it could be better discussed in isolation where some may like to offer their observations over the years of similar comparisons.These questions re Joash Papili and Iongi make for interesting discussions and seem to be a topic of currency.
A good friend of mine in Brisbane is adamant that Reece Walsh would be an elite 5/8. A lot of people vascillated over Ponga being best for Knights at 5/8 or fullback.
Darren Lockyer was probably the most successful switch from fullback to five-eigth. Still, he was exceptional with immortal status written all over him. A tough benchmark.Fortunately for him he also had a "full time minder" in standover man, Tony Carroll. So, he had less defensive challenges. No doubt there other examples I have missed but that's a benchmark.
Now, back to Iongi and Joash.
If either were to play at five-eight we have a situation where defence can be their kryptonite.
However, it comes back to the type of half or lock that you may have in your side. For example, one of the underated strengths of Nathan Cleary is that his defence is good as any lock. He could protect any 5/8 that is weak link. Think Talagi for a minute. Cleary basically and effectively cover defends every backline raid made on the Penrith side.
Mitchell Moses as improved as he is as a defender is not an elite cover defender, not from lack of effort but his enthusian is tempered by his lack of physicality. I can think most of his recent injuries can stem from him getting hurt undertaking defence. The point being we cannot afford to rely on Moses covering a weak defending six. This emphasised further by his injury proness and us needing to get his play making and attack speed harnessed.
I then suppose we look at the football qualities of the players we have discussed. If Joash had the type of skills that those elite players have, he would have done better so far full-stop as a first grade player. Reality says he hasn't got those elite skills. I accept they may come, but I doubt it.
Iongi comes into a different level of attainment, he has natural and unique skills, that lacking of the blinding pace that his peer group are showing makes "pace" as the missing ingredient.
Edwards is not exceptionally fast, but can go the length of the field and his bigger body and natural ability to beat a man physically gives him a make up edge.
Ponga who I think is having DB type burnout, is IMO the best and most natural-gifted player in the game, on his day. That "day" though has a touch of DB and MM about it.
Pappahauzen, Weekes have that exceptional blinding pace. Pappy also has that magnificent football instincts that makes him elite.
My summation is that Iongi is our long term fullback, at least for some time. His high ball catching is now at an elite level as is his back up support play. Joash is a good player. But he's difficult to place. It's my view he is not a first grade proposition in a single position, but a fine back up.
I also note in these discussions we end up very biased to our own in trying to justify something alluding to loyalty to our players. A very human response!
What are your views? Are there any other useful comparisons or anecdotes along these lines?
Replies
Probably on the money for the most part Poppa. I can see Iongi is shaping as a very good fullback, and he possesses most of the required skills - with less than a season of NRL to his name!. Would he make a great 5/8? We'll probably never know. Joash I don't think has really found his position yet and I haven't been sold on what I have seen so far. We'll see how he goes at fullback at NRL level. He's still young, so has lots of potential for growth.
You only have to look to Corey Norman, who was a good fullback but never quite made it as 5/8. Even at Parra he had better games at fullback than 5/8. It can be a tricky transition, and as you say, Lockyer was probably the best example.
2nd paragraphs the goods pops defense is key it's all part of the edge equation and you can see last week what happend with Russell and Joash.I'm not a believer in Joash as a full time FGer purely because of the mentioned Pops.I believe he'll get isolated and found out and if you pair him with a laterally comprimised centre like Russell it spells trouble with a capital T.
If we could get a 14 out of him a Conor Watson skill set I think that's where I see his future.I don't see him as a full time fullback and that's attack regardless.It's purely based off defending and from what I've seen my eyes don't trust him.
Defensively papalii is actually good at fullback. His 1 on 1 leg tackle have been great in nsw cup when needing to make those try savers
I am not a fan of Ionghi support play. Leaves trys on the table because he doesn't know how to trail through the middle. I like him, but lets not overcook his talent just coz he wears our jersey.
How many other teams, right now, would swap fullbacks with him?
Papili is our future, some see his games & say he no 5/8, but the fact he only played a handful of games in that position, it's unfair to say he not up for it. A whole off season will do him a world of good, then we will see if he up for it. As for defence he been ok, Moses came here & I remember a lot of people here that think their experts questioned why we got him. He has proven himself & proven others wrong.
Good summary Poppa
We're making a lot of rushed judgements of Papalii after a couple of games in a position he didn't train in during pre-season or played NSW Cup. It takes time for a player to adapt.
Iongi is our long term fullback. There are far too many attempts at trying to turn good fullbacks into 5/8s. The fact there has only ever really been 2 fullbacks to become full time 5/8s should show how difficult it is. And that's Lockyer and Munster.
Hayne couldn't make the switch, Inglis couldn't, Ponga hasn't. Even Jack Wighton's best football was at fullback.
It's very difficult for a fullback whose job is to chime into the backline and act as the third playmaker, to then transfer to the front line where the defensive work is higher, they're looked at to kick more regularly and are asked to play closer to the ruck.
What I have liked so far from Papalii is a willingness to attack the line and play what's in front of him. For instance, the chip in behind early against Canberra. He back himself to get the kick right and flip the field. It gave his edge more time to play for the remainder of the first half.
He may not be our full time option in the future, but I think writing him off over a handful of games without our halfback is short-sighted.
As an aside, I'd written Kitione Kautoga off in the first 6 weeks. Then he developed quickly and it's a shame he's injured now because he became probably our most impactful edge back-rower (when Williams isn't playing there).
💯 problem is some here think they know it all. Agreed with everything you said
Yes well said Super. Lockyer is an example but is actually in most cases the exception. He becomes the poster child for Fullbacks moving to 6 and those who have played a bit of 6 in lower grades.
in a position he didn't train in during pre-season or played NSW Cup....Super, why then does Ryles think he can pull it off on-stage?. I get that we have limited options, but this plan we should trust in, it seems to be quite loose...a plan for a plan
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