PREAMBLE: Ladies and Gentleman, Super is happy for this discussion to continue if we can remain civil and disagree respectfully, updated as necessary. If not, comments will be removed and if necessary the blog closed and any future Kirk-related blogs closed for discussion.
Part 1, by Wiz (more right leaning)
Part 2, by Prof Daz (more left leaning)
SYNOPSIS: Charlie Kirk spoke his final words at 12:23 p.m. on September 10, 2025, at Utah Valley University, in front of around three thousand people. Tyler Robinson, the 22-year-old alleged shooter of the 31-year-old Republican, remains under investigation. Utah’s governor suggested he may have been radicalized by the Left, though his MAGA-entrenched family and transgender partner complicate the narrative.
The attack shook the United States, exposing deep ideological fractures. Two days later, President Donald Trump concluded that “the radicals on the left are the problem” rather than the radical right who, he said, merely want to “stop crime,” framing the debate in partisan terms during a live Fox News interview. However, voices such as Jack Posobiec and Steve Bannon, speakers at Kirk’s conventions, had long used hard-line rhetoric, calling the Left “demonic” and urging the building of “an army of the awakened.”
History offers a far broader perspective. Abraham Lincoln, Yitzhak Rabin, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Jr. were assassinated by right-wing extremists. John F. Kennedy and Archduke Franz Ferdinand, whose death helped ignite World War I, were killed by left-leaning radicals. A two-way street.
Just months earlier, on June 14, Democrats Melissa and Mark Hortman were gunned down in their Brooklyn home by Vance Boelter, a hard-right evangelical, white Christian who disguised himself as a police officer. Married nearly 32 years, the couple left behind two children. The killings, however, received far less attention than Kirk’s death and did not prompt a presidential call to confront the radical right.
“What do they all share in common? Every political assassination is an attack on the collective; on our ability to disagree without destroying,” an academic observer noted. George Bernard Shaw called it the "extreme form of censorship."
Left or Right isn't the problem in my view. The greater danger lies in the radical mind and in how easily society nurtures the “us versus them” divide. As Desmond Tutu warned, “The moment we divide the world into ‘us’ and ‘them,’ we begin to lose our humanity.”
Charlie Kirk (above and below) is survived by his wife and two children.
Married nearly 32 years, Melissa and Mark Hortman as well as Gilbert, their Labrador (below) leave behind two children.
Boelter who assasinated the Hartmans allegedly kept a hit list of 70 targets, including Democratic lawmakers and even some anti-abortion clinics. The same early morning at 2am he invaded the Minnesota home (above) of the Hoffmans and their children who survived the shooting following surgery.
Replies
I used to think like this NOS, but it really feels like i need to choose a side in this. So i did. I chose the Broad Church, not the Christofascists(they hate being called that, but the only reason to attack abortion is.). Fuck their Purity tests. I mean, they see Prof Daz as a huge threat and dangerously hateful. I'm not having it. I chose a side
and people are dying, not for their actions, but for their beliefs and words.. his words actively encouraged the actions of others and his beliefs were christofascist.
We are not going to unite around blatant lies and "othering people". Buckle Up
Thanks MeelK and likewise, as HoE said, you're always very balanced.
Randy, I get it, genuinely. You're a highly intelligent person, and your views on many things clearly come from being such a deep thinker, as opposed to being reactionary or emotional.
My post definitely wasn't an attack on you, and I'm not naive enough to think we can all 'hug this out', that's for sure.
I absolutely did not take this as an attack on Me Nos.I totally respect both you and your position.
Folks like you are not the problem. I am not even sure that i can characterise the problem beyond "Why can't you be more like me" and " In The Goatherders Guide to the Galaxy, Jesus said) and "Send more money"
Beyond the Flying Monkeys, behind the curtain, are the billionaires and Putin.
The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”
― George Orwell, 1984
Poupou suggested in the other thread that novels are purely entertainment. That made me sad for him
Still one of my favourite novels, Randy.
Perhaps that's part of the issue, education seen as a form of entertainment, and as such, must remain entertaining to be consumed.
Haha.. flying monkeys - reminds me of Mr Burns 'fly my pretties, fly'.
There certainly is a lot going on behind those curtains Randy, flying monkeys may just be the tip of the iceberg.
Brilliant stuff, NoS. Great to see you back. Your wisdom, creativity & warmth have been missed.
These labels. Left vs Right vs Radicals, Us vs Them. Who’s “we”? Who’s “they”? Feels imaginary, yet real enough to be dangerous.
Dr Jordan Peterson’s research provides some clues. He found The Big Five personality traits such as openness, agreeableness, conscientioussness, along with IQ levels correlate with ideology leanings. Some of it is nature and personality. No wonder mixing Left and Right is often like mixing oil and water. Add some heat, a few spices and sparks, and Waalahh.
Six pages in and this blog is mostly fair remarks. In that spirit, what happens when we unpack the evidence in to-date and ask does ANY of it justify the public call by Republican leaders and influencers for open war on "the left", mass censorship of "the left", and threats of violent "retribution"? The point here should be that if someone IN FACT opposes political violence, they should oppose one act of political violence by the member of ANY group being SUFFICIENT warrant to visit political vengeful violence upon ALL members of that first group? If one denies this claim, and insists Member TR of Group L that commits political violence against Member CK of Group R is sufficient warrant for Group R to kill or censor all of Group L, then one MUST have an argument that all Group L are clones of TR. My suggestion is that all claims to such effect, which we can call a 'homogenization' thesis, are deeply suspect and most likely untrue. If so, that renders the "kill or censor them all" response UNWARRANTED.
One piece of evidence is that Tyler was in a romantic relationship with a trans-person (Lance Twiggs). I am assuming for the sake of argument that this claim is true (some reports insist it was just roomies but most say romantic relationship).
Does Tyler being in a romantic relationship with Lance Twiggs, which necessarily implies Tyler was most likely himself somewhere in the LGBTQ set of intimate choices, either a) definitively identify Tyler as "a leftist", or b) warrant retributional political violence or censorship against either all LGBTQ people or agianst "the left"?
I am very much hoping everybody realizes the answer to both 'A' and 'B' is NO.
With regard to 'A', Tyler is not necessarily a leftist even if having an LGBTQ identity, because everybody knows gay or trans conservatives and everybody knows leftists who are not gay or trans. I know it is unfashionable and I am open to charges of either being uncool (geek) or (worse) elitist (academics are jerks is the modern thing) by speaking precisely, but this is simple logic: if P then Q (a conditional statement) and if not-Q the not-P (contrapositive) are logically equivalent, so if one is true the other is true BUT if one is false so too is the other.
If the logic does not do enough work for you in this case (it should be sufficient), MAGA is full of gay or trans influencers. Being left or right is not determined by being gay or trans.
Milo Yiannopoulos (HERE). Gay, UK far right, now stumps for Trump, including running a PR firm that air brushes the rough edges from Trump's far-right supporters. Actually, ex-gay he says, having found Christianity apparently. Caitlyn Jenner (HERE), former Olympic decathlon gold medallist, and formerly Bruce. From the perspective of an utterly boring straight white rapidly ageing man, Bruce was a serious athlete and a bit of a specimen for the ladies. Caitlyn is now a very prominent MAGA supporter, including telling (failed) presidential VP Tim Walz that she was more masculine than him. Peter Thiel (HERE). He is the billionaire tech-bro (founded PayPal) who introduced JD Vance to Trump and became Trump's Crypto-Czar. Thiel is a self-described conservative-libertarian, and now runs a defence contractor (Palantir) doing lots of work for Trump and is advising Vance what to do to be leader in 2028 (FYI Thiel is on record for despising democracy). Also, openly gay. Buck Angel (HERE). A transexual man who shifted from liberal to conservative. Angel is a Trump voter who talks extensively (HERE) about talking across divides of politics and identity, and indeed claims no one label describes him. But he strongly supports Trump - he is the GOP version of ‘but I have a trans-friend' - and argues that the left deserved to get Trump (for the excesses of the left in his opinion).
There is already a forthcoming book on the issue of LGBTQ people who are MAGA. See Erlick Garland, Belonging through Exclusion: Understanding the Transgender Far Right (forthcoming 2026). Garland discusses why a minority of LGBTQ gravitate toward MAGA, usually around themes of reconciling family upbringing and/or very explicit political strategy to work from within; see HERE)
Conclusion: what role Tyler's s*xual orientation had in his radicalization is yet to be known, but because the homnogenization thesis fails so spectacularly if you even think about it for more than a few minutes, there is simply no call to infer from Tyler's (very likely, at this stage of evidence) sexual orientation to EITHER a definitive call on his political identity OR that there exist grounds to target all LGBTQ or all 'the left'. NONE. If we do not condone political violence, then should we not all be agreeing that we should resist the narrative that says "oh you're LGBTQ" or "oh you're a leftie" and infers directly to "kill them all"?
(academics are jerks is the modern thing) by speaking precisely,
Are not academics just a reflection of our society and the education it espouses. If the world was just all Academics, what would be different? Would we not have the same definitions of what this discussion is about.
I have read the arguments and the discussions, all from people I respect on here but it is difficult to get any "real truths"because the incumbents are all predestined to their beliefs.
I think NOS is the only one that has identified the issues, knowing as he states that no answers actually exist in the context of their predetermined views.
Hoe has done a wonderful job facilitating the debate and has brought order into the room.....in saying that if I was Chairman and this was the debate.....there seems to be no winners.....just players, playing for their team.
Personally I am centre right but me thinks that the logic of the left wins out in a score of no "golden points".
My own history has me left leaning. The only reason I am in this great country is the immigration policies of Edward Gough Whitlam and Al Grassby. I have a deep admiration for their ideals,views on democracy and the rights of all people. My leanings have nothing to do with the state of democracy in the USA. What I believe we are seeing is the fall of an empire in real time, eaten alive by division, hyprocracy,self interest and stupidity, and yes this comes from their leader Donald Trump and a country built on bloodshed. I have no real comment on Kirks death or any political deaths (either right wing or left) in the USA, what I care about is the flow on effects this has on the ideals, mentalities and direction of Australians. I do hope we can watch this train wreck and learn lessons from this so that we do remain a democratic, egalitarian society, where we retain our "Australianess", we can take the piss, be politically incorrect but remain united.
I understand this may be a naive notion in light of how people consume and verify agenda driven media these days, with ever increasing difficulty due to the amount we receive.
What I will keep is my small liberal ideals till the day I die and that all opinions are valid, I may disagree deeply, but I hope that mentaility remains in Australia that we wont get shot in the head over it....
Great post, Parra Greg. I feel privileged to hear you share a bit of your life. Thanks, mate.
thanks HOE, a bit of a flare up earlier this year apologies ....! just want our team to do better
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