This is receiving a fair bit of discussion and was touched upon in NOS' outstanding blog on the now-injured Iongi. I thought it could be better discussed in isolation where some may like to offer their observations over the years of similar comparisons.These questions re Joash Papili and Iongi make for interesting discussions and seem to be a topic of currency.
A good friend of mine in Brisbane is adamant that Reece Walsh would be an elite 5/8. A lot of people vascillated over Ponga being best for Knights at 5/8 or fullback.
Darren Lockyer was probably the most successful switch from fullback to five-eigth. Still, he was exceptional with immortal status written all over him. A tough benchmark.Fortunately for him he also had a "full time minder" in standover man, Tony Carroll. So, he had less defensive challenges. No doubt there other examples I have missed but that's a benchmark.
Now, back to Iongi and Joash.
If either were to play at five-eight we have a situation where defence can be their kryptonite.
However, it comes back to the type of half or lock that you may have in your side. For example, one of the underated strengths of Nathan Cleary is that his defence is good as any lock. He could protect any 5/8 that is weak link. Think Talagi for a minute. Cleary basically and effectively cover defends every backline raid made on the Penrith side.
Mitchell Moses as improved as he is as a defender is not an elite cover defender, not from lack of effort but his enthusian is tempered by his lack of physicality. I can think most of his recent injuries can stem from him getting hurt undertaking defence. The point being we cannot afford to rely on Moses covering a weak defending six. This emphasised further by his injury proness and us needing to get his play making and attack speed harnessed.
I then suppose we look at the football qualities of the players we have discussed. If Joash had the type of skills that those elite players have, he would have done better so far full-stop as a first grade player. Reality says he hasn't got those elite skills. I accept they may come, but I doubt it.
Iongi comes into a different level of attainment, he has natural and unique skills, that lacking of the blinding pace that his peer group are showing makes "pace" as the missing ingredient.
Edwards is not exceptionally fast, but can go the length of the field and his bigger body and natural ability to beat a man physically gives him a make up edge.
Ponga who I think is having DB type burnout, is IMO the best and most natural-gifted player in the game, on his day. That "day" though has a touch of DB and MM about it.
Pappahauzen, Weekes have that exceptional blinding pace. Pappy also has that magnificent football instincts that makes him elite.
My summation is that Iongi is our long term fullback, at least for some time. His high ball catching is now at an elite level as is his back up support play. Joash is a good player. But he's difficult to place. It's my view he is not a first grade proposition in a single position, but a fine back up.
I also note in these discussions we end up very biased to our own in trying to justify something alluding to loyalty to our players. A very human response!
What are your views? Are there any other useful comparisons or anecdotes along these lines?
Replies
Barba, an instinctive player again Kendoza.
Probably would be regardless of his position, his decline was caused by him not having the discipline to grow with it.
A player we have seen come good is Nikorama, an instinctive player that struggled with being a "soldier" rather than a star who could do wonderful things.....now he is post 30 and absolutely killing it, his current hamstring injury not withstanding.
Those type of players are also very dependant on who they have around them.
On another note paul alamoti dropped by penrith he's been outstanding he'd look good at parra
Funny you should say this insert into the right system and he's improved out of sight much like Talagi.I thought he looked terrible at the Dogs but damn the move has done him wonders.
I think we will know by 10pm tomorrow night if Joash is a 1st grade quality fb. Reynolds will no doubt test him out. I think Ryles has thrown him into the deep end of the pool tbh. I would have put Lo.ax at fb and Simmonson on the wing, I think it would have been the safer option. That way Joash could have stayed at 5/8 to get more used to it.
If Broncos run up a cricket score - which is not unlikely from the 50th minute onwards AGAIN - and Papalii is left posted at the back a dozen times and does the old "he dropped his head", there will be much talk of how a temporary cover for Iongi is actually consistent with Ryles' self-declared future is now experiment.
I'm hearing you the small snippets I could read which hurt my head from boredom iongi as I've posted before is pretty average lacks speed, bloke barely can break the line I'm not sold on him one bit I reckon Russell would be a better fullback and I can't stand Russell, now papali isn't a first grader one bit then you mention Moses or something. Good blog!
That's crazy, a lot more to fullback then just speed lol. Iongi will be QLB fullback in a few years for sure.
I'm not so sure that he is just average by all metrics he is well above average. An interesting part of his play, Iongi sits in 14th place over the entire NRL and 2nd in our team for tackle busts with 68. That's pretty awesome for a Rookie I'd suggest.
Walsh would make an outstanding 5/8 if he learns to slow the game down.
He plays such a high octane game that when he creates opportunities for his teammates they don't have the speed to get to the points of the field he needs them invariably he ends up playing for himself ,support runners are a secondary option.
Positioning your backrowers and using them as lead runners to draw defenders is your 5/8s bread and butter , with Walsh he needs to slow it down position his support player then explode with the ball.
He'll learn that though he has elite vision and like Iongi you wouldn't worry about changing his position until he's played near 150 first grade games and he learns more subtleties as a ball player.
Speeds great , patience and manipulating a play a few tackles before it unfolds is more important then chaotic explosions of speed as a half.
A good friend of mine in a discussion tonight said something similar.....in this case using Lockyer as the bench mark, he probably played half his career at fullback before switching to 5/8.....worth noting in the context of this discussion. May be some early ejaculation problems on our parts in this discussion.
-
2
-
3
-
4
-
5
-
6
of 6 Next