It was not so long ago, on the venerable pages of 1EyedEeel, that those of us unfortunate enough to have landed on the left of the political spectrum were scolded for apparently celebrating the murder of Charlie Kirk. No, we said, we are not celebrating that murder. Instead, our point was that the canonization of Kirk was a means to avoid frank discussion of his actual words. We would not participate in canonizing such a divisive figure. No matter said our critics. The issue was stated to be that ‘the left’ were responsible for the Kirk shooting. This ‘fact’ showed ‘the left’ are "loonies", "cancerous", they killed Kirk "because of his beliefs", they are "losing their grip on reality", "showing their true colours" and "cannot accept contrarian views". Yes, receipts available if memory does not serve. Some actually HOPED for "civil war" and that 'lefties' would be "carted off to work camps". Others opined that "far left violence is becoming a trend [and they will] definitely not like what comes next". Well, I guess that last remark was prescient?
Political irony is a gap between ideals and reality. With all this Kirk-inspired defence of free speech, and the deploring of political violence in response to "contrarian beliefs", we on the loony left were asked to ignore two obvious contradictions coming our way. One, our free speech to NOT fall into normative line was self-evidently denied. Apparently, we could not walk and chew gum. In this case, oppose murdering based on disagreement with beliefs but also have our own evaluation that said we oppose canonizing someone we regard as possessing many noxious beliefs. Two, apparently leftists were prone to political violence and deserved violent retribution because political violence was wrong. It is not even possible to parody that one, it is so comically contradictory.
Anyway, now we all watch as US ICE murders a soccer mom in her car and a male nurse trying to assist a woman who was being set upon by ICE agents. Senior US politicians from Trump down on through VP Vance and Congressman like R. Fine, plus Trump’s loyal protection squadron in his administration (Noem, Miller, Hegseth etc), have set about blaming the murder victims for their fate. The soccer mom was called a domestic terrorist trying to use her car as a weapon, when she was shot twice in the body and once in the head. The ICE agent is heard saying “f***en b***h” after murdering her. MAGA is saying the soccer mom deserved it, apparently because women should not be challenging men. The nurse is being accused of sedition and for deserving to be shot, because he was carrying a (licensed) hand-gun on his person (so much for gun rights?) when half a dozen ICE agents piled on top of him on an icy road and shot him multiple times at point-blank range. An ICE agent is on video dancing and clapping moments after the nurse was murdered. The US Republican leadership and their MAGA support base are literally celebrating the murders.
Political irony is a gap between ideals and reality. Is there really any kind of substance to the idea that there is some ideological debate going on here? If everything that was said in those Kirk blogs is true, that free speech extends to free political speech and political action, that political violence in response to political disagreement is wrong, that trends toward violent retribution are abhorrent, where are all the blogs calling for action against the Trump Regime. The Trump Regime that is quite literally terrorizing and violently suppressing its own citizens?
Is there not some common humanity, unfortunately too often hidden behind vicious and pointless trolling of people, usually based on their identity differences, that isn’t screaming out that there is potentially something terrible both germinating and unfolding in the USA at this present time? If political irony is a gap between ideals and reality, when does reality intervene to say stop pretending that free speech and abhorrence of political violence can just be memes launched by the right against the left or the left against the right, and that they actually should mean something, regardless of partisan identification? The US Government is celebrating the murder of its own citizens by its own agents. We are beyond hypotheticals. They’re celebrating murder, FYI.
Replies
The government is supposed to have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. ICE is a government agency, performing the government's work. They are using force, where necessary, to remove illegal residents from the country. Nobody in the US gets to decide they are illegitimate and then resist ICE's use of force with their own.
Poupou, you make a fair point but can I suggest where you lose track of your own fair point? The point you make is derived straight from the German sociologist Max Weber, his 'politics as a vocation' lecture. The key to "legitimate monopoly on force" for Weber was legitimate not force. In your account, what you carry forward is use of force. As if any use of force is fine so long as it eminates from the government and is directed at those over whom the government has dominion. But Weber actually said all extensions of force must follow lines of legitimacy not just lines of force. The key, in other words, is legitimacy. And it is difficult to see how ICE routinely violating normal constitutional checks on police enforcement action is legitimate. Warrantless searches. Demands for ID. Removal of targets. Etc etc. It is failing the legitimacy criteria, and that fact can get lost if Weber's account of monopoly power is reduced to force not legitimate force.
No my point is the people resisting ICE with threats of violence have zero claim to legitimacy.
Hi Poppa, some fair remarks, though I differ from you in two places.
One, I'm not sure if we differ so I ask as clarification. Do you think this is a "both sides" issue? Both Trump/MAGA and US left are equally complicit in these ICE executions of political opponents. I disagree. The situation is asymmetric from a causal perspective.
Two, you suggest it would be good if I were "in the middle". I respect why calls to be objective and in the middle are useful in times of high social conflict. Good people should want escalation, a tone reset, and a winding down of hostility. Maybe the idea that some can arbitrate from the middle might help. But there is a risk there that we get a normalization of extremism by claiming a dispute has a middle point from which an arbitrator can ask each camp to head towards. The point chosen if between each extreme is thought best if equidistant might simply mean dragging a less vicious position toward the more vicious position. So I actually don't think the middle ground is the right one in this case.
The correct position with regard to looming fascism is very far from it, as far as one can go
* DE-escalation! Typo small screen blah blah blah
That's funny because I haven't seen anyone complying with law enforcement be shot. Tensions are high so why would you choose to go into a situation where law enforcement are armed and on edge risking violence. All this is to protect illegal immigrants. There is proof innocent people have been rounded up but guess what, they are all released unharmed once it is sorted out if they comply within hours.
The first killing, whether she deliberately tried to run over the agent is debatable but the agent had previously been dragged by a vehicle in similar circumstances. This is the violence and attacks agents face but isn't publicised, why is that?
You have to realise it isn't the illegal immigrants being deported causing any of this violent against agents it is political protestors worked up by media that Trump is bad.
As long as agents are harassed, impeded and assaulted for doing their job they will become more and more on edge and trigger happy.
2nd killing, the man was armed. They are still trying to sort out what happened and different people see different things in the video to justify their point of view.
But regardless of the video, the agents have seen a gun on someone not complying. Is he struggling to get to the gun again. In a high stress situation with lots of movement and blocked views through the struggle an agent may have thought he saw him go for a gun or holding a gun. Maybe it was the gun maybe it wasn't but if he didn't have an illegal gun, if he didn't fight and wrestle law enforcement he would be alive.
Protest all you like but people are pretty much set in left and right thinking if you like it or not so why risk your life. Only a few people switch sides when something occurs that doesn't directly affect them. They change sides when they are directly affected such as the rich leaving blue cities such as New York and California due to socialist policies against the rich, if someone directly related to them is hurt etc.
Comply and you will get more people in the middle to side with you. FAFO and it just drives division from those who have already chosen sides.
Fake Midget, I don't see what's "funny" about any of the current situation in the US with ICE. Can you identify where you are finding it "funny"?
Also, it's interesting how you reframe the issue. Apparently, only those non-complying get shot. So are you saying that failure to comply with masked, armed agents who harass and assault you, citizen or not, deserves getting shot? Your expectation of public policing here is that unless dissenters tip toe about, maybe stay home and shut up, getting executed in the street is just desserts?
What I would suggest is that something has gone horribly wrong when one has landed on such a set of expectations.
Daz, you are being unfair to FM, the use of "funny" as an adjective was to give you the benefit of the doubt was equally as "strange" as it was "funny".
Using an old saying my mother used to make "your slip is showing".
This blog is now heading into the "case" "trial" format..... I am not getting into the facts, just the philosophy.
You say "Good people should want escalation, a tone reset, and a winding down of hostility."
Philosopically, this is where I would like to see you take it.....start with impeachment, where does that take us and who drives it and how?
I would like to see your ideas in this without your personal political idealogy Daz, I want to learn via opinion's I haven't seen yet, not ask questions of people that have predetermind answers.
If Trump was impeached, how would he react, how much more radical can he become. My guess is an outright dictatorship is not out of the question.....where will congress be in such a situation, not to mention the constitution and supreme court (puppetsville?)
How are the comparisons with other world leaders, Putin, Li etc....throw in the middle east.....give me a big picture rather than hesaid/shesaid.
different people see different things in the video to justify their point of view...but how is this possible? follow the bellingcat link and get back to me Fakey
You can call an incident out of order. You can say those officers were wrong. But instead you defend the whole system.
Submissives like you would never protest against anything with your feet so the treatment of protesters doesn't concern you.
Remember when you told me to educate Randette on what her rights should be? That was Authoritarian "you" yapping and she was mean't to accept and agree. Because that's how you react when your Authoritarian idols cross yet more lines...accept and agree..... good kitty
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