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Pou mentioned Ayn Rand in one of his posts which grabbed my attension. Some  of her thinking is where an Artist  who I think is one of the best thoughout  Art history is having an immense intellectual battle with the the establishments who have shaped the way we live. The Philosophers who have changed the world --maybe for ever ---according to Rand were two German philosophers in the late 1800,s .Kant and Hegel.She is highly regarded and also very controvesial as well. She talks about subjects often raised on this site by Wizz and Others. Brett Allen  and many others have some strong views on some of  these topics and often participates with his values with which I have no issues .Her views may be confronting to some.. I am not trying to provoke division but maybe some reflection on how you fit in the bigger scheme of things. She discusses topics like the meaning of Life and Death, Politics, Morality, Selfishness, Those in control of Education institutions and how much damage they are doing. One subject that interests me and has changed my view is something Chocolate Frog often talks about--Perceptions of Reality--I think CF is in the Hegal camp on this. It still is the orf seezun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAFKnfN4bfk&t=15s

 

 

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  • TAD - interesting left of field topic. For practical purposes: How would you best summarise these different philiosophical camps ?

    It's been years (well decades), since I studied philosophy. The Hegel's, Kant's, Plato's or Socrates'. I literally can't recall details. Maybe a summary from your perspective would help if or when you have time.

    The Buddhist approach, rings truthful for me, where there are two realities, or "Two Truths": the "Relative" (appearances) and the "Absolute". Most of us usually operate on the relative level because it appears more tangible and is more acceptable. Socially and psychologically. The absolute is more abstract and appears less relevant to solid world we live in. 

    For example a table looks solid. It feels solid. For all intents and purposes it is solid. But, is it? If we were to suggest it wasn't really, we'd be seen as a nut-job. And yet, in truth, on a deeper more molecular level it is primarily not-solid: it is 99% space. One of the reasons I love using the words: "it appears" LOL.

    As such CF's: "perception is reality" would align itself to a more relative or subjective truth. Even the idea of the Two Truths is a relative truth, ultimately: A finger pointing the moon, but not the moon itself.

    Anyway, apologies if I'm muddying the waters. Just adding my 2 cents.

    • HOE----" Muddying the waters" Very difficult to encapsulate all of this mate. But will try and do so from how I read Odd Nerdrum,s understanding of Philosophy regarding Kant Hegel and Aristotle. Ayn Rand is a strong critique of Hegal. Nerdrm is a Nowegian in his mid 70,s. He studied the best Classic Artists from Titian,Carravagio, Rembrandt primarily and developed thieir work to this level

      His pallet is only 4 colours Black white yellow and red

      Aristotlle was a round 550 BC{ I think-] He argued that reason is the only way for society to move forward. Ancient Greece was very sophisticated in so many areas of Government around humanism and developing a society based on peace, competition towards higher achievement and valuing  talent, seeking,uniformity of perception with a common understanding of reality. Lot of movement on a downward slide through to the Dark Ages of chaos and irrationality. Eg anti human values, poor governance, Religious brutality, witchcraft nonsense beliefs etc .The Renaissance turned all that around where aesthetics, Governance and reason became the foundation of society.Lots of great names surfaced under this revival of Ancient Greek scholarship eg Da Vinci,Michelangalo, Brunalesci etc {sp}

      Things moved along well in cultutal development seeking to build on what people learnt from historical masters.

      Kant published a book in 1790  called The Critique of Judgement which according to Nerdrum and Rand countered all of Aristotles thinking and changed the worldin the way we think and live.. For him genius was actions untainted by empiracle knowledge. Expression is nether good or bad . Anything new is Genius done well or bad. No standards of excellance based on competition,natural or learnt talent from the bank of previous learning. With Art we had Rembrandt

      to this

      and this

      For Kant genius is creating something which no one has ever seen before. Building on what masters learnt from previous masters have done was irrelevant and its vlue was downgraded.

      Hegel followed Kant saying work that doesn,tadhere to the values of its time has no value

      Marx continued this thinking by saying Art should follow political tendancies rather than historical achievement

      Education institutions continued that dogma after Kant and his followers ever since. Value is on the new and different rather than actual talent . How does it apply to all other aspects of the way we live since Kant in other life interests ? 

      Pop music is always looking for something different-- The next new thing to come on the market. Extend perceptions of realities towards differentness. Is that destructive in a culture that is becoming alienated because people cant keep up with such rapid change and value systems. Are we really haveing a community where people understand some commonality of belonging to aplace where communication means something. Do people read good quality talented literature amongst the noise of social media. Do people communicate with people or with phonesetc. Has Kant destroyed motivation for talented people to pursue thier craft in a system where their is no judgement on good or bad when judgement is on being different irrespective of quality and how does that filter to everything else we do.

      Not sure if it makes sense but probably going back to Rand some of it may become clearer.

      The world seems to be one big mess with so much divisiveness in so many ways that we now perceive reality through the philosophy of Kant where anything goes and talent takes a backward value. Look at your own area of expertise in anything you do--Is their a sense of competition and reward for people to excell when mediocrity is rewarded.

      This painting sold at Christies London for 3 million English pounds recently

      who studies anything done before Kant anymore?

      • HOE Lots of holes in how I put this together .Philosophy is something you try a figure out in a lifetime.

        Aristotle is about reasoning and bringing peoples perceptions together and working towards higher achievements in humanism. Kant is someone who esposes genus by valuing differentness and not quality of the endeavour. That is destroying perceptions of reality ,creating an alienated populace based on different perceptions of reality and insensitivity to Humanism, pain and suffering for people and animal live as well as the planet. Probably the best way I can put it. Valuing differentness as opposed to reaching higher states of  fullfilment in your endeavours in life centered about building on achievements of history

        • TAD - I really appreciate the considerable effort you put into summary. There's a lot to digest. And I will look into what you covered in more detail. The Arts and philosophy have always had influence on each other; and society.

    • I think you missed the best of the modern

      Descartes

      Divide each difficulty into as many parts as is feasible and necessary to resolve it.

      It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well.

       (I think; therefore I am.)

       

       

       

      • Yes Poppa "It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well."  That may be our problem--so much friggin noise out there you don,t have time to think. The meaning of life issues always hit me when I go to someones funeral or visit a cemetry.

  • Stepping back a bit and looking at Rand's philosophy - I have selected a few of her thoughts and quotes.

    Though, I do admire the "heroic" laissez-faire individual in her "Objectivism" philosophy: the independant-minded free-sprited individual, with supreme reasoning powers - I see one major fatalic flaw in her reasoning. Individualism is fine and would work perfectly as she sees - if we were all islands unto ourselves. But we're not. In truth. The whole world, cosmos is inter-connected. Broader considerations are needed.

    And also, if capitalism is the best solution as she proposes, why is the world in such a mess ? The proof is in the pudding.

    Capitalism will always leave a mess because the intent behind it is about competitiveness over co-operation and working together. Socialism became state capitalism - so that's no good either. Humanity has a long way to go my friend.

    • I have some issues in parts of what she is saying--maybe don,t fully undestand it---The proof is in the pudding or the reincarnated spirit of growth from learning from past  humanist masters. Pre Kant--after Kant

       

       

      • how perceptions of reality and  aesthetic values and craft have changed .

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